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	<title>Comments on: South Asian Studies at ASPAC</title>
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	<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html</link>
	<description>what is the vertiginous chapati saying to me?</description>
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		<title>By: Frog in a Well - The Japan History Group Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-35901</link>
		<dc:creator>Frog in a Well - The Japan History Group Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-35901</guid>
		<description>[...] interesting postings about the ASPAC conference in June. At Chapati Mystery, Jonathan guest blogged some observations on South Asian history discussions at the conference. At our China history weblog, Jonathan talked about some of the China history related panels. Here [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] interesting postings about the ASPAC conference in June. At Chapati Mystery, Jonathan guest blogged some observations on South Asian history discussions at the conference. At our China history weblog, Jonathan talked about some of the China history related panels. Here [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frog in a Well - The Japan History Group Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-27165</link>
		<dc:creator>Frog in a Well - The Japan History Group Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-27165</guid>
		<description>[...] I mentioned here and here, I had some great discussions about the question of diaspora at ASPAC. The dividing line between [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I mentioned here and here, I had some great discussions about the question of diaspora at ASPAC. The dividing line between [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-27009</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-27009</guid>
		<description>Qalandar: I&#039;m afraid my notes aren&#039;t too specific on which movements, except that he was focusing on the year 2000. But I went back to the abstract and pulled out this description of the data set: &quot;three successful movements in India, those which gave rise in 2000 to the new states of Uttaranchal, Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh, and three yet-to-be-successful movements in India, those of Telangana, Gorkhaland and Vidarbha.&quot;

On the last point, whether rich and poor share an ethnic/tribal identity, I don&#039;t think Dean McHenry was assuming that at all. There are cases where it&#039;s true that the elites share an identity with the poor, and there are cases where the elites are ethnic minorities in those regions. 

One of the main points of McHenry&#039;s talk (and huge part of the paper, he said) is that the socioeconomic analysis &lt;em&gt;doesn&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; show any consistent pattern, whereas the rhetoric does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qalandar: I&#8217;m afraid my notes aren&#8217;t too specific on which movements, except that he was focusing on the year 2000. But I went back to the abstract and pulled out this description of the data set: &#8220;three successful movements in India, those which gave rise in 2000 to the new states of Uttaranchal, Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh, and three yet-to-be-successful movements in India, those of Telangana, Gorkhaland and Vidarbha.&#8221;</p>
<p>On the last point, whether rich and poor share an ethnic/tribal identity, I don&#8217;t think Dean McHenry was assuming that at all. There are cases where it&#8217;s true that the elites share an identity with the poor, and there are cases where the elites are ethnic minorities in those regions. </p>
<p>One of the main points of McHenry&#8217;s talk (and huge part of the paper, he said) is that the socioeconomic analysis <em>doesn&#8217;t</em> show any consistent pattern, whereas the rhetoric does.</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-26924</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-26924</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;...the separatist regions very often have high levels of income inequality, with wealthy enclaves surrounded by significantly poorer regions.&quot;

I think this also ties into what I was saying earlier about &quot;natives&quot; and &quot;settlers&quot;; in a state like Chattisgarh, the &quot;wealthy enclaves&quot; are almost certainly &quot;settlers&quot; (or descendants of the same) -- whereas the separate state movements would typically have been spearheaded by those articulating &quot;tribal&quot;/&quot;native&quot; concerns.  Thus to the extent that the discussion assumed that the &quot;rich&quot; and &quot;poor&quot; shared the same cultural/communal group identity, I guess I would disagree.  [That does not mean I necessarily disagree with the notion that the process of new-state formation is itself open to capture by the elites.  And I do not also mean to suggest that &quot;elite&quot; will invariably map neatly onto the &quot;native/aboriginal&quot; and &quot;settler&quot; dichotomy: for instance, affirmative action and quotas means that in all these states the government is a hugely important source of employment for &quot;tribals&quot; and other marginalized groups].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;&#8230;the separatist regions very often have high levels of income inequality, with wealthy enclaves surrounded by significantly poorer regions.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this also ties into what I was saying earlier about &#8220;natives&#8221; and &#8220;settlers&#8221;; in a state like Chattisgarh, the &#8220;wealthy enclaves&#8221; are almost certainly &#8220;settlers&#8221; (or descendants of the same) &#8212; whereas the separate state movements would typically have been spearheaded by those articulating &#8220;tribal&#8221;/&#8221;native&#8221; concerns.  Thus to the extent that the discussion assumed that the &#8220;rich&#8221; and &#8220;poor&#8221; shared the same cultural/communal group identity, I guess I would disagree.  [That does not mean I necessarily disagree with the notion that the process of new-state formation is itself open to capture by the elites.  And I do not also mean to suggest that "elite" will invariably map neatly onto the "native/aboriginal" and "settler" dichotomy: for instance, affirmative action and quotas means that in all these states the government is a hugely important source of employment for "tribals" and other marginalized groups].</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-26921</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-26921</guid>
		<description>Jonathan: This is a very useful write-up, and many thanks for it.  

On states &amp; &quot;secession&quot;: I am not sure I would agree that the wealthier portions of states tend to be in favor of secession: I do not believe that Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, and Uttaranchal (to name the three prominent examples from this decade) were the most prosperous parts of Madhya Pradesh, Bihar, and Uttar Pradesh, respectively.  I would say the same about the ongoing Vidarbha movement in Maharashtra.

The wider point you make might nevertheless stand: i.e. each of the three I have mentioned are natural resource-rich, but the &quot;natives&quot; (for want of a better word Jharkhand and Chattisgarh feature very high %ages of &quot;aboriginal&quot; groups, loosely referred to as &quot;tribals&quot; or &quot;adivasis&quot; in the popular media, though &quot;settlers&quot; are likely a majority in Jharkand and certainly parts of Chattisgarh too) are dirt poor, and it cannot be doubted that &quot;outsiders&quot; -- in the form of corporations, government and private mining operations -- have been cornering the benefits of these natural resources for decades now, and the &quot;new state&quot; movements have grown out of that.

That&#039;s not to suggest that I can&#039;t think of instances where the more prosperous parts have sought to secede (think Tulunadu&#039;s sporadic attempts to secede from Karnataka), just that I was under the impression the general rule was the opposite: the would be Telengana or Vidarbha states (currently part of Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, respectively), and Jharkhand and Chattisgarh, seem to me to be poorer than the larger units they are/were part of.  Do you recall what examples were specifically used to illustrate this point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan: This is a very useful write-up, and many thanks for it.  </p>
<p>On states &amp; &#8220;secession&#8221;: I am not sure I would agree that the wealthier portions of states tend to be in favor of secession: I do not believe that Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, and Uttaranchal (to name the three prominent examples from this decade) were the most prosperous parts of Madhya Pradesh, Bihar, and Uttar Pradesh, respectively.  I would say the same about the ongoing Vidarbha movement in Maharashtra.</p>
<p>The wider point you make might nevertheless stand: i.e. each of the three I have mentioned are natural resource-rich, but the &#8220;natives&#8221; (for want of a better word Jharkhand and Chattisgarh feature very high %ages of &#8220;aboriginal&#8221; groups, loosely referred to as &#8220;tribals&#8221; or &#8220;adivasis&#8221; in the popular media, though &#8220;settlers&#8221; are likely a majority in Jharkand and certainly parts of Chattisgarh too) are dirt poor, and it cannot be doubted that &#8220;outsiders&#8221; &#8212; in the form of corporations, government and private mining operations &#8212; have been cornering the benefits of these natural resources for decades now, and the &#8220;new state&#8221; movements have grown out of that.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to suggest that I can&#8217;t think of instances where the more prosperous parts have sought to secede (think Tulunadu&#8217;s sporadic attempts to secede from Karnataka), just that I was under the impression the general rule was the opposite: the would be Telengana or Vidarbha states (currently part of Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, respectively), and Jharkhand and Chattisgarh, seem to me to be poorer than the larger units they are/were part of.  Do you recall what examples were specifically used to illustrate this point?</p>
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		<title>By: Frog in a Well - The Korea History Group Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-26441</link>
		<dc:creator>Frog in a Well - The Korea History Group Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-26441</guid>
		<description>[...] to blog during the conference, so I&#8217;m doing my conference blogging afterwards, staring with South Asian issues (textbook controversies, identity, and a new South Asian Studies Conference).2 I&#8217;ve also been [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to blog during the conference, so I&#8217;m doing my conference blogging afterwards, staring with South Asian issues (textbook controversies, identity, and a new South Asian Studies Conference).2 I&#8217;ve also been [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-26158</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-26158</guid>
		<description>It would have been interesting to have a panel actually debating the historical issues, or looking at the active groups in some detail, but in the absence of that it was interesting to see a thorough presentation of at least one side of the debate. Being a Harvard-trained historian (they noted Witzel&#039;s Harvard connection several times), I was clearly not the sort of critical voice they were looking for that day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would have been interesting to have a panel actually debating the historical issues, or looking at the active groups in some detail, but in the absence of that it was interesting to see a thorough presentation of at least one side of the debate. Being a Harvard-trained historian (they noted Witzel&#8217;s Harvard connection several times), I was clearly not the sort of critical voice they were looking for that day.</p>
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		<title>By: sepoy</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html/comment-page-1#comment-26136</link>
		<dc:creator>sepoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/south_asian_studies_at_aspac.html#comment-26136</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, thank you for this excellent write up. Some friends in CA were heavily involved in protesting the &quot;corrections&quot; introduced by the Hindutva groups into the textbooks. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flonnet.com/fl2301/stories/20060127000807700.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shiva Bajpai&lt;/a&gt; being the chief aggressor for the saffron-crowd. I think it is interesting that this presentation went by without a flare up. The effort of the Hindu extremists to contort history in India has been on-going [and thankfully, well resisted by historians] but the newest front lies in influencing the minds of the Indian diasporas. I think it will be up to our generation of historians to provide the bulwark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, thank you for this excellent write up. Some friends in CA were heavily involved in protesting the &#8220;corrections&#8221; introduced by the Hindutva groups into the textbooks. <a href="http://www.flonnet.com/fl2301/stories/20060127000807700.htm" rel="nofollow">Shiva Bajpai</a> being the chief aggressor for the saffron-crowd. I think it is interesting that this presentation went by without a flare up. The effort of the Hindu extremists to contort history in India has been on-going [and thankfully, well resisted by historians] but the newest front lies in influencing the minds of the Indian diasporas. I think it will be up to our generation of historians to provide the bulwark.</p>
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