Comments on: Innocents at Home

By: Aarjav

Aarjav — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

People who write theses and then go to find supporting evidence abound in CS too. Anyway, on a related note…I was discussing the role of the British in India with some friends a while back and some of them argued that without British colonisation, India would never have been a united country and would have continued to be a large number of backward warring kingdoms and without the English education system and English being made a major language, we would still have been disconnected from the world.

I had two problems with this argument: 1) The British clearly took away a lot of the wealth – both as taxes and as looted gold, lost opportunities in business (textiles come to mind) etc. 2) The above argument is clearly in the realm of speculation, it is also possible we would have united on our own and possible there would have been one union like Europe instead of the uneasy India/Pakistan/Bangladesh.

What are your thoughts on this? (So I can go back to them and say “My historian friend from U Chicago says…” :) )

Another question…how united on a ‘national’ level was the revolt of 1857…was everyone just fighting the British together coz they were a common enemy and the mutiny presented a good opportunity or was there a real ‘national’ fervor?

Sorry for the wordy comment :)

By: Sharon

Sharon — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I can only say to my British compatriots who somehow seem to feel personally affronted by the suggestion that our not-so-distant ancestors were racists and quite capable of exploiting those whom they considered ‘beneath’ them: get over it. Deal. And it’s one thing to point out from time to time that imperialism was not through-and-through evil (in its aims or effects), but another to ignore evidence in efforts to make excuses for it.

(I might add that I read _Orientalism_ as a MA student and (whatever its flaws) found it inspiring. So I’m obviously a traitor to my nation anyway.)

By: Caleb

Caleb — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Great post! Have you read Catherine Hall's Civilising Subjects: Metropole and Colony in the English Imagination, 1830-1867? It's another nail in the coffin you're building for Porter and company.

By: sepoy

sepoy — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Aarjav: Indian was “united” under the Mughals, under the Suris, under the Marathas. The Grand Trunk Road (Peshawer to Delhi) was build by Sher Shah Suri, a bit before the English. Administratively and, symbolically, Akbar ruled ALL of India. In the imperial case, such “unity” was achieved only after 1857 when the various Presidencies were subsumed (though, they continued as administrative units). The Uprising (i prefer that to revolt or rebellion) was localized around UP, Punjab, Northern borders. It was not coordinated enough to be considered a serious and united revolt. The accounts do suggest that not all the units that broke rank wanted the British out; some demanded better pay/treatment; some just wanted to desert. Still, it spread far and wide and took the Company almost two years to clean up. And, whatever Porter says, it created a immense backlash against the Company in London presses who demanded the heads of the executives for letting matters fall to this state.
Sharon: I don’t think imperisalism was evil through-and-through, either. And there is a good historical argument waiting to be made for it. But cherry-picking evidence ain’t the way to do that.
Caleb: Good call on the Hall! I had totally forgotten about that. Thanks, I will move that up to the post.

By: desesperanto

desesperanto — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Administratively and, symbolically, Akbar ruled ALL of India.

can you define “adminstratively”? my understanding is that akbar, like asoka, ruled the hindi belt and associated regions, but didn’t get very far south. see map of the mughal empire at akbar’s death.

my understanding is that in the era of the british, the princely states or the french/port colonies were not under british admin rule, and it was the nationalist movement that brought india under one adminstrative rule (except the chopped bits).

also, what is the relationship btw 1857 and the dismissal of bengalis as babus? i have heard various theories.

The Uprising (i prefer that to revolt or rebellion)

i prefer “late victorian holocaust” to “empire”.

j/k.

By: sepoy

sepoy — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

desesperanto: By administratively, I mean that Mughal mansabdars were present in all conquered or affiliated courts in India. Even the southern kingdoms paid tribute to Akbar. The Mughals, in most cases, before Akbar were pleased with courtly presence (a prince from a kingdom would be “held” as a guest in the Mughal court). Akbar, though, embarked on a nice conquest of his own to bring more regions under his direct control. The notion of a united India is very easily found in Abu Fazl or Badayuni’s histories or in the poetry from Akbar’s court.

Very similarly, the Company entered into treaties with most of the princely domains operating out of the three presidencies established in India. The french or portugese presence after 1757 was restricted to one or two port cities and dependent on continental policies of Britian.

Under “Direct Rule” – after 1857 – the presidencies were dissolved under the Crown and more of the princely domains incorporated but the net effect was largely the same as before.

And, I don’t really know what you refer to in your babu – 1857 connection…

By: Bernard Porter

Bernard Porter — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

First rule of criticism: read what you’re criticizing. Then I’ll be glad – if you like, and if we both have the time – to discuss my book with you. (By e-mail, preferably.)

By: sepoy

sepoy — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I understand that, Prof. Porter, which is why this post is about Cannadine’s review of your book and I state that I haven’t read your book.
I do plan on doing so and would be delighted to converse with you about it.

By: Indian

Indian — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

If the British did not arrive, India may not have been ‘civilized’, might not have ‘united’or there might not have been ‘English’ schools.

But NOBODY (including Indians) ask this question that how this would matter to foreign robbers anyway?

India has ‘fed’ free meals throughout it’s history including European, Arab, Mongol races.

What is disgusting is that the British parliament and their monarchy did not apologize for their abominable acts of economic and social exploitation.

-Indian