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	<title>Comments on: Empire Week VI: Back to the Colony</title>
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	<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html</link>
	<description>what is the vertiginous chapati saying to me?</description>
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		<title>By: rob</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3730</link>
		<dc:creator>rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/uncategorized/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony#comment-3730</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re right: the sheer depth of the &quot;Ameri-British&quot; alliance on certain issues would&#039;ve been unimaginable pre-9/11. I wonder how contingent this is, however; whether this is a long-term structural change in world foreign policy or a product (at least partly) of the idiosyncracies of Bush and Blair. Certainly Blair has been sycophantic to the point of absurdity, evading questions or being hyper-diplomatic about things we &lt;em&gt;know&lt;/em&gt; he is supposed to dislike about Bush policy even while even other members of his and opposition parties say it quite openly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re right: the sheer depth of the &#8220;Ameri-British&#8221; alliance on certain issues would&#8217;ve been unimaginable pre-9/11. I wonder how contingent this is, however; whether this is a long-term structural change in world foreign policy or a product (at least partly) of the idiosyncracies of Bush and Blair. Certainly Blair has been sycophantic to the point of absurdity, evading questions or being hyper-diplomatic about things we <em>know</em> he is supposed to dislike about Bush policy even while even other members of his and opposition parties say it quite openly.</p>
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		<title>By: thbt</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3731</link>
		<dc:creator>thbt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Consider, for a moment, Iraq. US could never have launched the war without Blair.&quot;

While it might be true that &#039;ideologies&#039; are very similar, you&#039;re giving Britain far too much leverage in this new &#039;empire&#039;. If there is any alliance, surely Britain is better thought of as a &#039;vassal&#039;, especially if you consider just how uneven the the relationship is. Take some examples:

Britain cannot even fire cruise or nuclear missles without the US saying so; we have uneven extradition treaties, with British citizens faring much worse than Americans; British citizens can be incacerated without trial for three years by Americans; there are American bases all over British territories; American business dominates the UK economy (I wonder how important American business interests in the UK were in Blair&#039;s thinking to support Bush).

Also, here is an intresting thought: spreading the Holy Trinity of Democracy, Freedom and Human Rights -- The New Imperium as you call it -- is fashionable amongst a new breed amongst the left-wing (&quot;liberal hawks&quot;), whereas its old champions on the right, are turning inward, shunning such adventures. At least this appears to be the case in the UK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Consider, for a moment, Iraq. US could never have launched the war without Blair.&#8221;</p>
<p>While it might be true that &#8216;ideologies&#8217; are very similar, you&#8217;re giving Britain far too much leverage in this new &#8216;empire&#8217;. If there is any alliance, surely Britain is better thought of as a &#8216;vassal&#8217;, especially if you consider just how uneven the the relationship is. Take some examples:</p>
<p>Britain cannot even fire cruise or nuclear missles without the US saying so; we have uneven extradition treaties, with British citizens faring much worse than Americans; British citizens can be incacerated without trial for three years by Americans; there are American bases all over British territories; American business dominates the UK economy (I wonder how important American business interests in the UK were in Blair&#8217;s thinking to support Bush).</p>
<p>Also, here is an intresting thought: spreading the Holy Trinity of Democracy, Freedom and Human Rights &#8212; The New Imperium as you call it &#8212; is fashionable amongst a new breed amongst the left-wing (&#8220;liberal hawks&#8221;), whereas its old champions on the right, are turning inward, shunning such adventures. At least this appears to be the case in the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: rob</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3732</link>
		<dc:creator>rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>thbt is utterly correct. Perhaps the most striking thing about the war on Iraq was not how many people &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; protest but how many &quot;on the left&quot; didn&#039;t.

Incidentally, they have an auto-response on British TV for when people accuse the Commission for Africa Report of greed/imperialism/interventions -- that half the members were Africans. See? Clean slate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thbt is utterly correct. Perhaps the most striking thing about the war on Iraq was not how many people <i>did</i> protest but how many &#8220;on the left&#8221; didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Incidentally, they have an auto-response on British TV for when people accuse the Commission for Africa Report of greed/imperialism/interventions &#8212; that half the members were Africans. See? Clean slate.</p>
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		<title>By: sepoy</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3733</link>
		<dc:creator>sepoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Two broad points: 
1. I think that one must look back to the imposition of sanctions and the Kosovo conflict to see the formation of this imperium. So, it is not as contingent upon current holders of power. Regardless, the paths chosen do not leave much room for negotiation even after Bush/Blair have left office [in 3 long years]. 
2. There is no question that America is the hegemon on the world stage. A hegemony, though,  is not quite the same as an imperium. It is British participation that provides, in my view, the necessary ideological and political pull to makes the empire possible. No, they are not equal. But, neither can exist without the other  - &lt;i&gt;in shapes that they desire to exist on the world stage&lt;/i&gt;. The Iraq War [Gitmo, AbuGharib, WMD] have for the forseeable future taken away the US ability to act unilateraly. It needs Britain. Britain, on the other hand, went through it&#039;s own post 1945 nightmare of being sidelined even from continental affairs. It needs the world-leadership that comes from the imperium.  So, while you are correct, thbt, that Britain is not an equal in mights and rights, it surely is an equal in political capital and global visions.

Lastly, the &quot;left&quot;&amp;&quot;right&quot; categories are rather unsuited for discussion. Mainly because of the rampant desertion of members in either camp to the other after 9.11. I do think we need a clean slate and new membership table for the New Left and the New Right as well as better understanding of what it actually means to be any of those things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two broad points:<br />
1. I think that one must look back to the imposition of sanctions and the Kosovo conflict to see the formation of this imperium. So, it is not as contingent upon current holders of power. Regardless, the paths chosen do not leave much room for negotiation even after Bush/Blair have left office [in 3 long years].<br />
2. There is no question that America is the hegemon on the world stage. A hegemony, though,  is not quite the same as an imperium. It is British participation that provides, in my view, the necessary ideological and political pull to makes the empire possible. No, they are not equal. But, neither can exist without the other  &#8211; <i>in shapes that they desire to exist on the world stage</i>. The Iraq War [Gitmo, AbuGharib, WMD] have for the forseeable future taken away the US ability to act unilateraly. It needs Britain. Britain, on the other hand, went through it&#8217;s own post 1945 nightmare of being sidelined even from continental affairs. It needs the world-leadership that comes from the imperium.  So, while you are correct, thbt, that Britain is not an equal in mights and rights, it surely is an equal in political capital and global visions.</p>
<p>Lastly, the &#8220;left&#8221;&#038;&#8221;right&#8221; categories are rather unsuited for discussion. Mainly because of the rampant desertion of members in either camp to the other after 9.11. I do think we need a clean slate and new membership table for the New Left and the New Right as well as better understanding of what it actually means to be any of those things.</p>
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		<title>By: dacoit</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3734</link>
		<dc:creator>dacoit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>With regards to thbt&#039;s perceptive point, there are certainly numerous and vocal &quot;liberal hawks&quot; that advocate US military action in Afghanistan, Iraq and more recently Iran and Syria.  Putting this in historical context, there is nothing particularly new about the Democratic Party getting behind such international interventions - what is unique is that the GOP is taking on the task of &#039;nation-building&#039; as part of their own agenda.  

The way the scenario looks from the US right now, strengthening what we are calling the New Imperium is a common program of both the Democratic and Republican parties.  At a certain point during the presidential debates, Kerry was the one doing the sabre-rattling in the direction of Iran and North Korea, and Bush responded with a plea for a more inclusive multi-lateral approach.  I thought this was a very telling moment.

Sepoy points out that the terms &#039;left&#039; and &#039;right&#039; are of little value for talking about US international policy.  This is true, but only if we are using left and right in the sense that has become conventional over here - to designate the Democratic and Republican parties, both of which are knee-deep in the miasma of New Empire.  As soon as Howard Dean&#039;s campaign was derailed and US liberals started talking about the importance of electability (meaning centrist politics, a strong national defense agenda, and candidates with military experience and maybe even religiously-infused rhetoric), the Democratic party ceased to have anything to do with the &quot;left-wing&quot; as it is perceived in most of the world.  It has been probably a century since people considering themselves leftists, progressives or radicals in the US have seen liberal politicians as anything more than strategic allies (in the sense of voting for the lesser of two evils, much like the CPI and CPI-M in India generally tell their party members to vote for Congress if they are not fielding a candidate with a legitimate chance).  Significant segments of the population opposed US involvement in WWII, for example, out of support for the right of residents of various world regions to self-determination.  Indeed, WWII was seen by many in British and French colonies in Asia, and those sympathetic to their plights, as a conveneient means to consolidate extant imperial structures and linked economic systems that tended towards the exploitation of labor.  The picture changes significantly with the onset of the Cold War, but much of the opposition to the wars in Korea and Vietnam also articulate a consistent position. If one takes the American left as an (admittedly fragmented) entity that exists independently of the Democratic Party, it may not be necessary to wipe the slate entirely clear and construct new membership tables.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regards to thbt&#8217;s perceptive point, there are certainly numerous and vocal &#8220;liberal hawks&#8221; that advocate US military action in Afghanistan, Iraq and more recently Iran and Syria.  Putting this in historical context, there is nothing particularly new about the Democratic Party getting behind such international interventions &#8211; what is unique is that the GOP is taking on the task of &#8216;nation-building&#8217; as part of their own agenda.  </p>
<p>The way the scenario looks from the US right now, strengthening what we are calling the New Imperium is a common program of both the Democratic and Republican parties.  At a certain point during the presidential debates, Kerry was the one doing the sabre-rattling in the direction of Iran and North Korea, and Bush responded with a plea for a more inclusive multi-lateral approach.  I thought this was a very telling moment.</p>
<p>Sepoy points out that the terms &#8216;left&#8217; and &#8216;right&#8217; are of little value for talking about US international policy.  This is true, but only if we are using left and right in the sense that has become conventional over here &#8211; to designate the Democratic and Republican parties, both of which are knee-deep in the miasma of New Empire.  As soon as Howard Dean&#8217;s campaign was derailed and US liberals started talking about the importance of electability (meaning centrist politics, a strong national defense agenda, and candidates with military experience and maybe even religiously-infused rhetoric), the Democratic party ceased to have anything to do with the &#8220;left-wing&#8221; as it is perceived in most of the world.  It has been probably a century since people considering themselves leftists, progressives or radicals in the US have seen liberal politicians as anything more than strategic allies (in the sense of voting for the lesser of two evils, much like the CPI and CPI-M in India generally tell their party members to vote for Congress if they are not fielding a candidate with a legitimate chance).  Significant segments of the population opposed US involvement in WWII, for example, out of support for the right of residents of various world regions to self-determination.  Indeed, WWII was seen by many in British and French colonies in Asia, and those sympathetic to their plights, as a conveneient means to consolidate extant imperial structures and linked economic systems that tended towards the exploitation of labor.  The picture changes significantly with the onset of the Cold War, but much of the opposition to the wars in Korea and Vietnam also articulate a consistent position. If one takes the American left as an (admittedly fragmented) entity that exists independently of the Democratic Party, it may not be necessary to wipe the slate entirely clear and construct new membership tables.</p>
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		<title>By: s.w.</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3735</link>
		<dc:creator>s.w.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Your posts about empire were well done.  

To give my own eccentric view, I think the American imperium has a closer similarity with the 16th-century Spanish domination of Europe than the Pax Britannica.  I have recently read Geoffrey Parker&#039;s history &quot;The Dutch Revolt,&quot; which presents the anatomy of religious and political struggle over control of the Low Countries circa 1560-1600.  The description of Dutch Protestant militants popping up to resist the Spanish professional army, as well as networks of exile churches in England and Germany, is uncannily similar to how the Iraq insurgency has been developing.  

The Dutch revolt financially exhausted the Spanish monarchy, and was a major cause of its 17th century decline.  The Spanish commitment to extirpate &quot;heresy&quot; at all costs was cognate to the Bush admin.&#039;s unswerving commitment to stopping &quot;Islamist terror.&quot; I don&#039;t see a similar monomaniacal motive at work in the maintenance of the British empire--and I believe U.S. hegemony is already evaporating, like Spain&#039;s did, as military spending outpaces a stagnant economy.

So I&#039;d be pleased to hear anyone&#039;s thoughts on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your posts about empire were well done.  </p>
<p>To give my own eccentric view, I think the American imperium has a closer similarity with the 16th-century Spanish domination of Europe than the Pax Britannica.  I have recently read Geoffrey Parker&#8217;s history &#8220;The Dutch Revolt,&#8221; which presents the anatomy of religious and political struggle over control of the Low Countries circa 1560-1600.  The description of Dutch Protestant militants popping up to resist the Spanish professional army, as well as networks of exile churches in England and Germany, is uncannily similar to how the Iraq insurgency has been developing.  </p>
<p>The Dutch revolt financially exhausted the Spanish monarchy, and was a major cause of its 17th century decline.  The Spanish commitment to extirpate &#8220;heresy&#8221; at all costs was cognate to the Bush admin.&#8217;s unswerving commitment to stopping &#8220;Islamist terror.&#8221; I don&#8217;t see a similar monomaniacal motive at work in the maintenance of the British empire&#8211;and I believe U.S. hegemony is already evaporating, like Spain&#8217;s did, as military spending outpaces a stagnant economy.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;d be pleased to hear anyone&#8217;s thoughts on that.</p>
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		<title>By: ricia</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/empire_week_vi_back_to_the_colony.html/comment-page-1#comment-3736</link>
		<dc:creator>ricia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great series. Haven&#039;t had much time to comment, but
I have passed it along:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://impetusonline.blogspot.com/2005/06/coffee-break-7-blog-surfn.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://impetusonline.blogspot.com/2005/06/coffee-break-7-blog-surfn.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great series. Haven&#8217;t had much time to comment, but<br />
I have passed it along:<br />
<a href="http://impetusonline.blogspot.com/2005/06/coffee-break-7-blog-surfn.html" rel="nofollow">http://impetusonline.blogspot.com/2005/06/coffee-break-7-blog-surfn.html</a></p>
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