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	<title>Comments on: Decline Scenario</title>
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	<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html</link>
	<description>what is the vertiginous chapati saying to me?</description>
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		<title>By: elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-96869</link>
		<dc:creator>elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>and very belatedly, because I was distracted and missed this excellent discussion, I wanted to mention that Donald Quataert has an v good essay somewhere on the changing attitudes to the &quot;decline&quot; paradigm in Ottoman historiography  (o, for access to an academic library...will dig up a reference eventually).

And of course, similarly, declinism is a crucial ingredient in Turkish republican/nationalist history-writing about the Ottoman past as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and very belatedly, because I was distracted and missed this excellent discussion, I wanted to mention that Donald Quataert has an v good essay somewhere on the changing attitudes to the &#8220;decline&#8221; paradigm in Ottoman historiography  (o, for access to an academic library&#8230;will dig up a reference eventually).</p>
<p>And of course, similarly, declinism is a crucial ingredient in Turkish republican/nationalist history-writing about the Ottoman past as well.</p>
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		<title>By: krishna</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-90145</link>
		<dc:creator>krishna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 02:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-90145</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the nice writeup. This story of descent is pretty ironic considering that the british were able to rule India precisely because the descent narrative was factually untrue. They could not have run India without the extant bureaucratic and administrative institutions that they inherited from Indian rulers. 

Incidentally, the standard nationalistic narrative of british takeover emphasized the importance of trade, and that the loss of Indian freedom was a consequence of loss of control over sea lanes of communication (due to neglect of naval security and regional political and military instability), and hence trade from India. At least this was the narrative when I studied NCERT books as a school student (80&#039;s and early 90&#039;s). The books were otherwise pretty communist :), and I must say that there is much more merit to this than the standard tropes that you refer to. This is of course also partly Braudel&#039;s thesis of colonization. 

I also really felt sorry for Dara Shikoh and was pretty distressed by his fate when I heard the story in my childhood. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the nice writeup. This story of descent is pretty ironic considering that the british were able to rule India precisely because the descent narrative was factually untrue. They could not have run India without the extant bureaucratic and administrative institutions that they inherited from Indian rulers. </p>
<p>Incidentally, the standard nationalistic narrative of british takeover emphasized the importance of trade, and that the loss of Indian freedom was a consequence of loss of control over sea lanes of communication (due to neglect of naval security and regional political and military instability), and hence trade from India. At least this was the narrative when I studied NCERT books as a school student (80&#8217;s and early 90&#8217;s). The books were otherwise pretty communist :), and I must say that there is much more merit to this than the standard tropes that you refer to. This is of course also partly Braudel&#8217;s thesis of colonization. </p>
<p>I also really felt sorry for Dara Shikoh and was pretty distressed by his fate when I heard the story in my childhood. :)</p>
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		<title>By: shiromoney</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-88892</link>
		<dc:creator>shiromoney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-88892</guid>
		<description>great post and discussion.  not the trivialize things, but it made my day to see the Kinks album cover at the head of the post.  as ever, way to go Sepoy.

And, to Qalandar, I often imagine an alternate universe with the 2 vols. of The Rothschilds and none of Ferguson&#039;s later books.  I feel better about liking them, that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great post and discussion.  not the trivialize things, but it made my day to see the Kinks album cover at the head of the post.  as ever, way to go Sepoy.</p>
<p>And, to Qalandar, I often imagine an alternate universe with the 2 vols. of The Rothschilds and none of Ferguson&#8217;s later books.  I feel better about liking them, that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-87492</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 00:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-87492</guid>
		<description>great post.  i struggled for a time with the question of the impact of colonial intrusion in South Asia for a while before giving up because I don&#039;t speak Persian (yet) and have no way of knowing who to believe even if I found enough sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great post.  i struggled for a time with the question of the impact of colonial intrusion in South Asia for a while before giving up because I don&#8217;t speak Persian (yet) and have no way of knowing who to believe even if I found enough sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-86117</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-86117</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard good things about the new NCERT books (i.e. compared to the ones they replaced) too, would be curious to get teachers&#039;/educators&#039; take on them too...

Dara: Random Aside: his &quot;Mingling of the Two Oceans&quot; is available in English too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard good things about the new NCERT books (i.e. compared to the ones they replaced) too, would be curious to get teachers&#8217;/educators&#8217; take on them too&#8230;</p>
<p>Dara: Random Aside: his &#8220;Mingling of the Two Oceans&#8221; is available in English too&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: history_lover</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-86012</link>
		<dc:creator>history_lover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 05:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-86012</guid>
		<description>Qalandar
I first learnt of Dara Shikoh vs Aurangzeb in Maulana Abul Hassan Ali Nadwi (Ali Mian)&#039;s Saviours of Islamic History and took a early dislike to Dara shikoh on reading of his rather unorthodox ideas .
  I began to appreciate Dara shikoh&#039;s ideas when I grew older.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qalandar<br />
I first learnt of Dara Shikoh vs Aurangzeb in Maulana Abul Hassan Ali Nadwi (Ali Mian)&#8217;s Saviours of Islamic History and took a early dislike to Dara shikoh on reading of his rather unorthodox ideas .<br />
  I began to appreciate Dara shikoh&#8217;s ideas when I grew older.</p>
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		<title>By: Red</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85955</link>
		<dc:creator>Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 01:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85955</guid>
		<description>Dara Shikoh rocks my boat too. Incidentally I would recommend the new NCERT textbooks for history (available online here http://www.ncert.nic.in/textbooks/testing/Index.htm)

They junk the kings and dynasties method, focus on things like traveller&#039;s accounts, social formations, poetry and culture and leave Kings and Courtly culture for the last chapter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dara Shikoh rocks my boat too. Incidentally I would recommend the new NCERT textbooks for history (available online here <a href="http://www.ncert.nic.in/textbooks/testing/Index.htm)" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncert.nic.in/textbooks/testing/Index.htm)</a></p>
<p>They junk the kings and dynasties method, focus on things like traveller&#8217;s accounts, social formations, poetry and culture and leave Kings and Courtly culture for the last chapter.</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85764</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85764</guid>
		<description>Good point Red -- and note that in nationalist historiography (referring here to the Nehruvian kind, not the right-wing kind) you have Akbar as &quot;good&quot; and his nefarious ideological other, Aurangzeb*; combined with the other Indian monarch Sen champions in &quot;The Argumentative Indian&quot;, namely Asoka (whose chakra is of course the centerpiece of the Indian tricolor), one can easily see Akbar and Asoka as two pillars of the Nehruvian ideological project.  To this day Indian school history textbooks will typically have a lot more material on Akbar than any other medieval monarch (I note that based on what I&#039;ve seen with my cousins in Karachi, at least the post-Zia textbooks there accord a lot more space to Aurangzeb than to Akbar).

*[I&#039;m myself very unsympathetic to Aurangzeb&#039;s ideology, and have had distress ever since childhood that Dara Shikoh didn&#039;t win :-)].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point Red &#8212; and note that in nationalist historiography (referring here to the Nehruvian kind, not the right-wing kind) you have Akbar as &#8220;good&#8221; and his nefarious ideological other, Aurangzeb*; combined with the other Indian monarch Sen champions in &#8220;The Argumentative Indian&#8221;, namely Asoka (whose chakra is of course the centerpiece of the Indian tricolor), one can easily see Akbar and Asoka as two pillars of the Nehruvian ideological project.  To this day Indian school history textbooks will typically have a lot more material on Akbar than any other medieval monarch (I note that based on what I&#8217;ve seen with my cousins in Karachi, at least the post-Zia textbooks there accord a lot more space to Aurangzeb than to Akbar).</p>
<p>*[I'm myself very unsympathetic to Aurangzeb's ideology, and have had distress ever since childhood that Dara Shikoh didn't win :-)].</p>
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		<title>By: Red</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85758</link>
		<dc:creator>Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85758</guid>
		<description>For what its worth, Sen does eulogize Akbar in his argumentative Indian and has the great line about while Europeans were burning Giordano Bruno at the state, Akbar was formulating his suhl-i-khul, which goes to confirm Q&#039;s point about the central role the Mughal state plays in the nationalist geneology of the modern Indian state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what its worth, Sen does eulogize Akbar in his argumentative Indian and has the great line about while Europeans were burning Giordano Bruno at the state, Akbar was formulating his suhl-i-khul, which goes to confirm Q&#8217;s point about the central role the Mughal state plays in the nationalist geneology of the modern Indian state.</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85731</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85731</guid>
		<description>Thabet: Could you elaborate?  Not sure I follow: why do the Spanish or Ottoman empires provide better comparisons from your perspective?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thabet: Could you elaborate?  Not sure I follow: why do the Spanish or Ottoman empires provide better comparisons from your perspective?</p>
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		<title>By: thabet</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85593</link>
		<dc:creator>thabet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85593</guid>
		<description>Why constantly compare the &quot;American empire&quot; with the Brits?

The Spanish or Ottoman empires provide better comparisons, imho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why constantly compare the &#8220;American empire&#8221; with the Brits?</p>
<p>The Spanish or Ottoman empires provide better comparisons, imho.</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85487</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85487</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Ferguson, I really liked his book on the Rothschilds...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Ferguson, I really liked his book on the Rothschilds&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Global Voices Online &#187; South Asia: Decline Scenario</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85412</link>
		<dc:creator>Global Voices Online &#187; South Asia: Decline Scenario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85412</guid>
		<description>[...] Chapati Mystery on the idea of &#8220;decline scenario&#8221; in interpreting history - implying that South Asia was already in decline before colonization.   Share This [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Chapati Mystery on the idea of &#8220;decline scenario&#8221; in interpreting history &#8211; implying that South Asia was already in decline before colonization.   Share This [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85398</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85398</guid>
		<description>Rajat Kanta Ray&#039;s book &quot;The Felt Community&quot; also bears mention in the context of this discussion: it is empire-centric too, but in large part with an ear for what happened to this ideology over the course of the 18th century (Ray seems to locate the &quot;pre-history&quot; of nationalism in the rhetoric and ideology of specifically the late-Mughal aristocracy)...

http://qalandari.blogspot.com/2007/03/book-review-felt-community-2002_25.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rajat Kanta Ray&#8217;s book &#8220;The Felt Community&#8221; also bears mention in the context of this discussion: it is empire-centric too, but in large part with an ear for what happened to this ideology over the course of the 18th century (Ray seems to locate the &#8220;pre-history&#8221; of nationalism in the rhetoric and ideology of specifically the late-Mughal aristocracy)&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://qalandari.blogspot.com/2007/03/book-review-felt-community-2002_25.html" rel="nofollow">http://qalandari.blogspot.com/2007/03/book-review-felt-community-2002_25.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85395</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, meant to say, in my first paragraph above, that &quot;...I would agree that PRE-Mughal Muslim rule is placed under a pall&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, meant to say, in my first paragraph above, that &#8220;&#8230;I would agree that PRE-Mughal Muslim rule is placed under a pall&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Qalandar</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85393</link>
		<dc:creator>Qalandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85393</guid>
		<description>Good piece and comment (although sepoy, I would resist the notion that standard nationalist historiography cast the entirety of Muslim rule under a pall; I think -- with a view to the consolidation of the nation state centrally ruled from delhi -- that the Mughals were privileged; I would agree that PRE-Muslim rule is placed under a pall).

Jonathan: to this day, standard histories treat the 18th century as some kind of doom and gloom period for India, and I am glad to see openness to countervailing notions.  The century probably wasn&#039;t all that bad from the perspective of the Maratthas, the Jats, etc. etc. (more broadly this would get into the debate over, not only whether de-centralization was &quot;good&quot;, but over how centralized the imperial polities were in the first place).  [The &quot;empire-centrism&quot; re-asserts itself here too, as this or that polity is anointed as imperial successor; typically the Maratthas, doing some violence to the way that polity was structured.]

I must confess to great impatience with Ferguson, who often does read like an apologist for empire, especially in his post-9/11 writings.  And, playing devil&#039;s advocate for a second, Sen&#039;s view is standard nationalist, but he might feel the need to re-invigorate the paradigm given the triple threat it faces from the likes of Ferguson; the Hindu nationalist accounts which basically see an unending night from Mahmud of Ghazni all the way down to Jawaharlal Nehru (suitable glimmers for Shivaji, Maharana Pratap, and Vijaynagar); and a certain &quot;post-modern&quot; tendency to resist the simplistic accounts of imperialism by focusing so much on the cross-cultural exchange aspect of it that the empire begins to seem like one big pluralistic party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good piece and comment (although sepoy, I would resist the notion that standard nationalist historiography cast the entirety of Muslim rule under a pall; I think &#8212; with a view to the consolidation of the nation state centrally ruled from delhi &#8212; that the Mughals were privileged; I would agree that PRE-Muslim rule is placed under a pall).</p>
<p>Jonathan: to this day, standard histories treat the 18th century as some kind of doom and gloom period for India, and I am glad to see openness to countervailing notions.  The century probably wasn&#8217;t all that bad from the perspective of the Maratthas, the Jats, etc. etc. (more broadly this would get into the debate over, not only whether de-centralization was &#8220;good&#8221;, but over how centralized the imperial polities were in the first place).  [The "empire-centrism" re-asserts itself here too, as this or that polity is anointed as imperial successor; typically the Maratthas, doing some violence to the way that polity was structured.]</p>
<p>I must confess to great impatience with Ferguson, who often does read like an apologist for empire, especially in his post-9/11 writings.  And, playing devil&#8217;s advocate for a second, Sen&#8217;s view is standard nationalist, but he might feel the need to re-invigorate the paradigm given the triple threat it faces from the likes of Ferguson; the Hindu nationalist accounts which basically see an unending night from Mahmud of Ghazni all the way down to Jawaharlal Nehru (suitable glimmers for Shivaji, Maharana Pratap, and Vijaynagar); and a certain &#8220;post-modern&#8221; tendency to resist the simplistic accounts of imperialism by focusing so much on the cross-cultural exchange aspect of it that the empire begins to seem like one big pluralistic party.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Dresner</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Dresner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85379</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m always struck, teaching world history, at the degree to which the textbook writers seem to be rooting for empires, especially in places like India where empires rarely controlled the whole region. (Africa is kind of the same way) I think it&#039;s laziness: empires make it possible to simplify the history, to refer to &quot;&lt;i&gt;a&lt;/i&gt; culture&quot; and &quot;&lt;i&gt;a&lt;/i&gt; history&quot; for a big chunk of the world. The gap between the Mughal and the British is a dead zone in the textbook: in the absence of empire, there can only be stasis until the land is reabsorbed into history in the form of another empire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always struck, teaching world history, at the degree to which the textbook writers seem to be rooting for empires, especially in places like India where empires rarely controlled the whole region. (Africa is kind of the same way) I think it&#8217;s laziness: empires make it possible to simplify the history, to refer to &#8220;<i>a</i> culture&#8221; and &#8220;<i>a</i> history&#8221; for a big chunk of the world. The gap between the Mughal and the British is a dead zone in the textbook: in the absence of empire, there can only be stasis until the land is reabsorbed into history in the form of another empire.</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html/comment-page-1#comment-85348</link>
		<dc:creator>Zak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/decline_scenario.html#comment-85348</guid>
		<description>Excellent post.  I&#039;m particularly interested in the point you make about lack of access to the Persian archives at the end.  Looking over Macaulay&#039;s minute recently, I was struck by the occlusion of Persian in the Orientalist/Anglicist debate; the options given are English, classical &quot;Indian&quot; languages, and the vernaculars.  Persian is not rejected; it&#039;s never taken into consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post.  I&#8217;m particularly interested in the point you make about lack of access to the Persian archives at the end.  Looking over Macaulay&#8217;s minute recently, I was struck by the occlusion of Persian in the Orientalist/Anglicist debate; the options given are English, classical &#8220;Indian&#8221; languages, and the vernaculars.  Persian is not rejected; it&#8217;s never taken into consideration.</p>
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