http://qalandari.blogspot.com/2009/07/jodha-akbar-hindi-2008.html

I HEART Ms. Sen.

Thought I’d share that.

“the film has interestingly enough had an amazing ‘afterlife” in Pakistan”

That film has also had a surprising backing in the Palestinian territories.

Hey, you know which filum has had admirably endured on a world scale? Baazigar! I swear that everyone in Morocco, Turkey, Italy, and Spain knew the songs. “Baazigar, oooooooh baazigar…”

Page 3 to be honest I did not like much (I dislike virtually everything Madhur Bhandarkar has directed, although Page 3 was waaaaay better than his other offerings, like Satta, Traffic Signal, and Corporate)…given your screen name, you’ll forgive me when I say that I much preferred Fellini’s original to Page 3!

Superb thoughts on the serials phenom: will need to re-visit and digest slowly…

Oh, and I liked Waris Shah, but more for Gurdaas Maan’s songs.

“I think the Hindi film industry has become MORE conformist over the last 15-20 years”

Yeah, but filums from back then were conformist as well. Silsila, for example, took on adulterous liasons with past lovers and shamelessly audacious flirting during Holi– all of which does occur– but in the end, what happens? Everyone goes back to their current spouses, and this time, they WANT to be with their spouses!!

Or another film with Rajesh Khanna (when he looked quite dapper). I think Asha Parekh or Jaya Pradha was the heroine. Anyway, in this film, Rajesh is a handsome Army fauji. He loves Asha, they have sex, she remains pregnant, he dies. But wait– they had a mandhir shaadi in the Himalayas (or was it Kashmir?), so even if they don’t have a marriage certificate, they were husband and wife in Bhagwan’s eyes, and the kid’s not illegitimate, and thus, woman and child earn our sympathy.

Mind you, it’s fine by me if you have pre-marital sex etc, but clearly, it’s not ok for Bollywood, which has to sanction love affairs with God’s blessings.

Though Saalam-Namaste arguably discusses pre-marital sex, living with your lover, madamji getting pregnant, blah blah. But tin the end, conformity rolls in.

“might we not see them as expressing a certain wistfulness, loss even? That is, at precisely the historical moment when urban Indian families are least likely to conform to the “model” of joint family, housebound bahu, “traditional values” etc., at precisely that moment we have a plethora of such serials, typically with a viewership of women over 40 (I find the (e.g.) SRK love story even more problematic because its regressive values are masqueraded as liberalism, and peddled even to the young).”

Interesting observation. I think it has to do with the whole globalization-modernity-cum juxtaposed with “Indian values” rhetoric. Meaning, these characters are all a bunch of wealthy, capitalistic, consumption night-mare families, but they have the “Indian” values in tact– which are the things you have mentioned. Essentially, what’s being churned out by the mass media (which globally disseminates this Indian pop culture) is this: conformity wrapped up in lots of gold jewelry, absurdly big bindhis, layers of heavy make-up, incense smoke from pujas, and C.R.E.A.M. These serials embody the middle class’s obsession with identity in the face of having lots of paisa, and the serials provide a comforting message: you don’t really have to change or modify anything at all– just keep spending away and hyper-inflate everything.

Re: viewership, it’s not only 40 something socialites watching these soaps. It’s women AND men (yes, men sitting with their wives following each twist and turn of the plot with bated breath) not only in India, but also in Pakistan and in the diaspora (not sure how popular they are in Bangladesh, etc,).

Random note, but the ubiquity of the lovely saadi in Indian soaps has sparked a fashion trend in Pakistan. Long live the Desi Soap Empire.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080223/jsp/nation/story_8938710.jsp

She is also manifestly the best looking woman I’ve seen in these TV serials…

This reminds me of a scene in “Sparsh” (Naseeruddin Shah is blind, and asks Shabana Azmi if she is beautiful; her response is something like):

“Log kehtay hain kay goree hoon…aur hamaaray mulk mein khoobsoorat honay kay liye itna kaafi hai.”

[I have not yet been able to come across data on viewership of these serials across different demographic segments. I would be interested to ponder the extent to which the serials' viewership is comprised of people who continue to subscribe to the model presented as ideal, namely they live in a joint family, all the bells and whistles, etc.]

To be fair, in my experience, conversion is more of an issue with Muslims or Christians than it is with Hindus. The religious Muslims I know would consider conversion a sine qua non of marriage (with both “sides” one would have to do the hard work of convincing families to get over the threshold of “difference”, but less than conversion — even if this is only “formal”, and not understood to be genuine — is very rarely acceptable to Muslims). Traditionally one doesn’t/cannot convert to Hinduism, although starting in the late 19th century, the Arya Samaj tried to change that. Thus today you have a bunch of groups who believe in conversions to Hinduism (the Hindutvawaadis of course), but traditional Hindus don’t believe in conversion. This might tie in with the broader discussion here: given the patriarchal assumptions about women “going over” to their husband’s “side”, a Muslim man/Hindu woman love story might tap into fears about another one being “lost” to Hinduism. [This mirrors the controversy over conversions in India: virtually every outfit that wants these banned or severely restricted is actually a Hindu, implicitly testifying to the fact that almost all conversions in India are from Hinduism to other religions (mostly Christianity)].

And this just occurred to me: in all the films I mentioned where a Hindu woman is romantically involved with a Muslim man, the latter seems quite a-religious and “unmarked”. Perhaps this is realistic, or perhaps this unconsciously quells the concerns discussed above.

Re: “at this point, you and I are both surmising this to the extent of how much of it was class and religion, unless we ask the woman’s Papaji himself.”

Ha! well said, and guilty as charged!

I see one more female character who is a wimpy, whimpering, and helpless woman prettily dressed in pink, I will pull a gun out and shoot the screen.

Excuse my rant, now I am really veering off course.

Back to Mughals and Bollywood.

“Sure, a Hindu man/Muslim woman story is less likely to disturb folks, but I don’t think that by itself sufficiently explains the dearth of such films”

Hmmm… don’t know. I mean, I see where you are coming from, but I know that the issue of a Muslim man marrying a Hindu and Sikh woman is a huge deal, given the fear of supposed conversion that a woman would have to go through (whether this fear is founded or not; I am sure there are plenty of unions where neither party has had to convert) coupled with regarding a woman as more of a recepticle of whatever the guy is, and the paranoia surrounding a Muslim takeover (in case you think I am exaggerating, I am to a certain extent because I am thinking about the life-threatening danger that Hindu-Muslim couples have had to face in specific circumstances, and for them it is very real. To be fair, it is not indicative of the entire sub-continent, but I do think that this rhetoric is sufficiently fused in the minds of many people).

Bollywood films have always struck me as trangressing the lines, but always in a conformist way so that in the end, it is not transgressing the lines. There are so many films that do this– stories about adultery, falling in love with someone across the border, inter-communal stuff, movies about hot-spots in the sub-continent such as Kashmir, all of which provide something critical and DO reflect certain realities, but only to have all of that deflated into something acceptable and comfortable.

“though on the West Bengal story, I never got the impression the young man would have ended up any less dead had he been Hindu…a reminder that social class yet remains the (obscene) faultline it is most difficult to surmount in India…”

I agree with you here as well; class was a factor too, but at this point, you and I are both surmising this to the extent of how much of it was class and religion, unless we ask the woman’s Papaji himself.

Qalander, you have an amazing breath of knowledge on Bollywood! Does your interest get piqued by Indian soap operas as well? That stuff provides the substance for much of my fuming and railing at Indian pop culture, with all of the ridiculous messages (and melodrama) that it exudes… :)

I guess I would make the point a bit more broadly: when it happens on the silver screen, it’s a different story. I think there’s a psychological suspension involved that leads me to suspect that a FILM with a “minority male” and a “majority female” angle wouldn’t be rejected by the public (none of the few examples mentioned above drew even the slightest protest on that ground; one can’t say that the films were too insignificant, as “Aaja Nachle” for instance, was briefly banned in U.P. as one line in one song was deemed offensive to the “mochi” sub-caste). Sure, a Hindu man/Muslim woman story is less likely to disturb folks, but I don’t think that by itself sufficiently explains the dearth of such films (too early to tell if that trend is changing, although most of the films I can think of that go “the other way” are from the last 2-3 years)…

Generally agree with your comment, though on the West Bengal story, I never got the impression the young man would have ended up any less dead had he been Hindu (his love story was truly filmi — i.e. poor boy in love with the daughter of a rich businessman — but alas the ending wasn’t), and conversely, had he been as wealthy as his wife’s family I doubt he would have been offed — a reminder that social class yet remains the (obscene) faultline it is most difficult to surmount in India…

Thanks for you extensive comments!

“That sort of inter-religious marriage is quite common in Bollywood circles, especially among celebs who have grown up in Bombay (SRK is the exception). Even among non-celebs, one hears of inter-religious marriages in the Bandra or Juhu crowd quite often.”

Yes, and that’s my point. When it happens to celebrities, it’s a different story.

However, the reality is that inter-religious marriages occur even in the non Juhu circles. And these instances bear the brunt of targeted violence, such as Gujarati Hindu/Muslim couples being zeroed in on during the riots and afterwards, or Hindutavadis “rescuing” women who have married outside of their “community,” offing Muslim men who dared to marry Hindu women (like in Bengal, courtesy of the West Bengal police force).

So for the purposes of this discussion, strictly IMO, depicting love and marriage between a Muslim male and non Muslim females in Bollywoood films would be controversial for large sectors, whereas the opposite is less likely to mess with rigid mentalities.